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Civic Nationalism is not "stupid"

The English Independence Party is an ethnic nationalist party set up after, or possibly during, the fall of the civic nationalist Free England Party. It joins the growing ranks* of other ethno-nationalist groups ranging from the England First Party, white nationalists; The BNP, British but in favour of an English 'Volk parliament'; United England Patriots and English Shieldwall, Anglo-Saxon revivalists, and; Steadfast and the English Lobby, both supporters of majority rights for the ethnic English.

There is overlap between these groups but ideologically speaking they are a somewhat disparate collection of ethno-nationalists. Some might be more correctly termed white-nationalists and others cultural-nationalists, but even the more culturally orientated delve into areas of race. The English Lobby, for example, has recently launched a petition to "preserve the White English ethnic group identity".

The other common link that these ethnic nationalists share is a dislike of, or lack of trust for, civic nationalists. So it's perhaps no surprise that new English Independence Party launched into an attack on English civic nationalism with one of the first posts to the English Independence Party blog (originally publically available but now hidden from view).

Civic English Nationalism

There's little point fisking this, it doesn't need it. But as a civic nationalist I do feel the need to reply and hopefully inject a bit of reason. I have some insight into ethnic nationalist insecurities through discussions with them on this blog, when they have come to inform me that I am an idiot and to tell me that only the ethnic English can be English. Ethnic nationalists understand 'civic nationalism' to be code for multiculturalism, and they feel that a civic, plural and inclusive English national identity will render Englishness as meaningless as they feel British identity has become. I don't share that insecurity. I want people from other races, religions and cultures that make England their home to feel a sense of belonging, to feel English. In my speech to the Convention on Modern Liberty I asked the audience to ask themselves three questions:

  1. What is my ethnic identity?
  2. What is my national identity?
  3. What is my state identity, my citizenship?

Given England's constitutional status it is perfectly possible, and unfortunately probable, that second, third or fourth generation immigrants will not answer "English" to any of those three questions. That's bad for England. My civic nationalism is about allowing people who are not ethnically English to feel English by national identity, which I hope will help instill a sense of pride in England's cultural heritage and collective national identity, despite the fact - or even because of the fact - that they are not ethnically English. I want to bring us together as a nation, not by being prescriptive, but by providing a gateway into a feeling for England through civic and democratic means. By railing against English civic nationalism as "stupid" the ethnic nationalists are not only a reaction to the multiculturalism they despise, they are an integral part of it. We have arrived at the position whereby each and every ethnic group competes for their 'rights', the logical endpoint of multiculturalism as described by Paul Kingsnorth:

Britain now is a ‘cosmopolitan’ society in which no one cultural identity has pre-eminence, and in which Englishness, Polishness and Bangladeshiness must compete on equal terms. The nation’s many ‘minorities’ are not to be integrated into mainstream society (‘integrated’ is such a problematic word; and anyway, what is the mainstream?) but fenced off, theoretically if not physically: defined as ‘BMEs’, afforded ‘protection’, treated as victims, spoken for. Descended from Pakistani immigrants but born in England? Sorry, you’re still ‘Pakistani’, or ‘Asian’ or’ ‘minority ethnic’. You can be British, if you like, because Britishness has been stripped of meaning and is therefore ‘inclusive’ – but you can never be English (or, presumably, Scottish or Welsh, though this gets less attention) because Englishness is ‘racially coded’. Attempts to define it are thus potentially racist; it’s best if the English just shut up about it and get on with ‘celebrating diversity’ instead.

Is a more inclusive English national identity a threat to the cultural identity of the ethnic English? I don't think so. It may undermine the racial coding of Englishness, but that would be no bad thing, and those ethnic nationalists who are more interested in protecting the cultural inheritance of England should think about the positive benefits of an immigrant population who respect - respect not tolerate - the ethnic English on the basis of a mutual respect and a shared national identity.

* To the starting list you might also add The English Defence League, but their ideology is somewhat unclear.

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The March of the Ethnics

There's something comical about today's Daily Express headline

It's probably something to do with how old-fashioned it sounds. As Ed West says "Monty Burns is the only person I've heard use the word 'ethnics'".

We're all ethnics these days, pigeon-ho

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Toque said;It may undermine

Toque said;

It may undermine the racial coding of Englishness, but that would be no bad thing.....

We have the truth in that one sentence.
Toque see's it being 'no bad thing' for Englishness to no longer have a racial identity.

The truth is that today British no longer exists as an identity. Racial or cultural.
Toque thinks it 'no bad thing' for the same to happen to the English. His civic English will have a non identity 'English' and their ethnic identity 'Pakistani' etc.

If everyone and anyone could claim to be English then English is nothing as an identity. Once it is nothing as an identity then what claim has it to having a specific culture?

Why would it be no bad thing?

I am English and nothing else. I do not have a second ethnic identity to fall back onto when claiming some preferential treatment as a minority racial group.
Toque would have the English erased as a racial group.

Fortunately mass immigration, multi culturism and civic identity all forced upon the English is being noticed by a slowly awakened English people.

Mass Immigration of your English/whatevers dont seem to be integrating into the suddenly not so tolerant English racial group.
The English recognise the non English walking our streets in droves demanding more and more rights.
The English recognise the non English preferential treatment handed out by the government and other sell outs.

This country will suddenly not be able to continue to borrow money to fund its benefit system, its foreign aid, its foreign wars, to fund its over crowded with non English schools hospitals council houses etc.
Then you will see tolerance go out of the window.

Then your voice will be dwarfed by the roar of anger as the English say enough is enough, THIS IS OUR COUNTRY.

That day will of course will be 'No bad thing' unless your a foreigner......or a civic.

he also said;

and those ethnic nationalists who are more interested in protecting the cultural inheritance of England should think about the positive benefits of an immigrant population who respect - respect not tolerate - the ethnic English on the basis of a mutual respect and a shared national identity....

I like how you constantly change from ethnic to national identity.

So if I am ethnically English, and Abdul is ethnically Pakistani but nationally English;

When there is some benefit to being English,
we both apply.
Yet when there is a benefit to being a minority,
then Abdul only applies.

You civics ruined Britishness with your multi racial British identity and now you want to try again with Englishness.

Toque's picture

"Toque would have the English

"Toque would have the English erased as a racial group."

Do you want to back that up with, well...with anything that supports your argument?

"We have the truth in that one sentence. Toque see's it being 'no bad thing' for Englishness to no longer have a racial identity."

Is it reading or comprehension that you have a problem with? Englishness is an attribute, or set of characteristics, not a racial identity. I don't think we're going to agree on this, but for the sake of argument I don't regard 'English' (or 'Englishness') as a racial identity. If it is then what differentiates it from Scottish, or Welsh or German? If Englishness is racially coded, as it is for you, then it prevents people who are not white from associating with the nation of England on a cultural attitudinal basis. It's a recipe for ghettoisation and alienation.

"I like how you constantly change from ethnic to national identity. So if I am ethnically English, and Abdul is ethnically Pakistani but nationally English"

That's about the strength of it, yes, on the proviso that Abdul wants to be English (I'm not suggesting that he is English just on the basis of living here). Ethnicity and national identity are not the same, although there is a strong and important relationship between the two in nations such as England that were founded or forged on fairly unitary ethnic identity.

"Then your voice will be dwarfed by the roar of anger as the English say enough is enough, THIS IS OUR COUNTRY."

No comment.

"His civic English will have a non identity 'English' and their ethnic identity 'Pakistani' etc."

My 'civic English' will be everyone in England, all English in one crucial respect - through the ballot box, able to elect representatives to an English parliament. That still doesn't make them English by national identity and self-identification, but it can help inculcate a feeling of belonging to England. I'd like people of all persuasions to feel equally able to fly the English flag, support the English team, take pride in our culture and history, etc. I don't think you should view that as a threat to your ethnic identity, but if it does then perhaps you would be kind enough to share with me your alternative vision of the future.

Toque said; Do you want to

Toque said;

Do you want to back that up with, well...with anything that
supports your argument?

Toque then said;

My 'civic English' will be everyone in England, all English in one crucial respect -

So everyone in England is English, every racial attribute, every cultural attribute, everything that is a multi racial multi lingual multi cultural England.

They are your English.

It is like the Spartacus film..."I am English", "no I am English" " Actually Im English too".

If everyone with every culture etc are English then English like the aformentioned British do not exist.

You try to make English either
a mental attitude or
a physical attitude

when it is both.

The same as differentuates a Somalian from a Nigerian.
An Iraqi from an Eqyptian.

Your ridiculous claim to English being purely a mental attribute is as ridiculous as you walking into a mosque and claiming to be Pakistani.
Or claiming all Canadians to be Inuit's, or that all Australians are Aborigini's.

There are racial charactoristics and mental chractoristics that define us.

Those Pakistanis may laughingly accept you at face value as Pakistani but not a single Pakistani seeing you walk down the street will think you a Pakistani.

Toque said;

That's about the strength of it, yes, on the proviso that Abdul wants to be English (I'm not suggesting that he is English just on the basis of living here).

Hold on first everyone in England is 'civic' English, which would include Abdul, now Abduls only English if he wants to be?

Does Abdul have to say Im ethnic Pakistani but civic English just to differentuate between the two.

I mean if Abdul says "Im English" does he mean civic or ethnic or nationally English. How many types of English are there in your England?

So by making everyone English-something you think we will all suddenly unite into one multi racial multi cultural unity.
A unity which has nothing in common except walking around saying "Im civic English"
No ghettos no diversity no seperation...LOL

My vision of the future.
Thanks to mass immigration and government social engineering helped by the likes of yourelf, I see a further divided group of peoples.
Civic English Gordon Brown has to stop borrowing money to fund his spending so cuts benefits.

Immigration becomes the big government scapegoat of all this countries woes.
Immigrants took your jobs
Immigrants bought your industries
Immigrants flooded your schools
immigrants took your houses

I would like to say a big thank you to yourself, because it is through your (and others like you) undermining of the English that the English are begining to unite as one people with both a racial and mental English identity.

Devolution
Positive Discrimination
Civic Englishness

LOL....

Currently, I would describe

Currently, I would describe myself as a moderate English Nationalist. I classify myself as an Ethno-Nationalist, and consider race and DNA to influence and play a considerable part in ethnicity and current politics. But, I certainly see no qualms in allowing and accepting "non-whites", or as they are often cited as "non-Englisc", as English. Contrary to my adamant beliefs, I do recognise that cultural ethnicity and cultural identity can, and do, play a significant part in modern English nationalism. Indeed any Nationalism.

As an outsider from the two camps of "civic" and "ethnic" Englishness, I see only two sets of the same people all wanting the same end result. I may not agree with the route by which both of your camps take, but I recognise that in both camps are people with one objective in mind: to live in an independent England, with a English parliament run by English people for English people.

As George Bernard Shaw once said:

"It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him."

And it is because of this truism, that we currently still live under a Scottish-British government with everything turned up and weighted against us.

Let's start working together and bicker afterwards, hum?

Toque's picture

BeornWulfWer, thank you for a

BeornWulfWer, thank you for a constructive and intelligible comment.

Ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism are not mutually exclusive. There's no reason why a democratic, civic, state cannot prioritise its indigenous culture and and bring in legislation to promote, teach or preserve the heritage that makes it unique.

I don't think ethnic nationalism is in itself a bad thing, it's just its practitioners that I have a problem with (as demonstrated by Andy and, in particular, Englisc Native). If I was in the PM of a new English state one of the first things I would do is prioritise the teaching of history to include the Anglo-Saxon period, which is when the English nation was formed and from where much of what is unique about modern England can be attributed. I think it's one of the most interesting and important parts of our national history, and I'm very pleased that interest in Anglo-Saxon England is undergoing a revival. We should also teach more about the struggle of the English people against the "Norman Yoke" - a term that has fallen out of fashion but can be used as shorthand for Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus, the Civil War (Diggers, Levellers, Chartists). However, these are things that all the people of England should be aware, not just those whose ancestors were participants.

I don't think you can neatly state that English ethnic nationalists and English civic nationalists want the same thing. Both are broad churches with many views. The English nationalism of the BNP and England First, which essentially disenfranchises non-whites and excludes them from democracy, and essentially from the nation of England, is not something that I can agree to. At the other end of the scale there are ethnic English nats who want legal protection for English ethnicity, and there is a logic to their argument that I can appreciate. Although I can see that logic I'm not a fan of multiculturalism or 'group rights' and I regard them as essentially a protest movement against multiculturalism and the politicisation of minority interests.

Those who call themselves ethnic nationalists but who have a cultural basis for that nationalism rather than a racial basis, I'm perfectly happy with - as far as I am concerned there's no conflict between cultural nationalism and civic nationalism. In fact the two are complementary.

Beornwulfwer said; I

Beornwulfwer said;
I recognise that in both camps are people with one objective in mind: to live in an independent England, with a English parliament run by English people for English people.

We both do want this aim, and Torque has fought THAT fight a lot longer and better then I.

However I also see that Torgue in an attempt to make everybody and anybody English is undermining English identity.
An English parliament will govern the people of England, NOT the English.

The English are a people, they have an ethnic identity based on much more then location, or as Torque states, they mearly believes themselves English.
This is why today we have programmes and policies undermining our identity so others like Torque can claim everyone is English.
Polices meant to wipe out the indiginous people and replace them with a group of people who claim Englishness only while it suits them.

Civic identity IS stupid. The more Torque and his type try to push civic Englishness on the ethnic English then the more the English will deny them.
These people are British not English, just as they could become;
Americans not Arapaho
Canadians not Inuit
Australians not Aborigini
Africans not Somalians

Toque's picture

Your forum comment "Looks

Your forum comment "Looks like he doesnt want to debate his viewpoint that erosion of English identity is 'no bad thing'." is a misrepresentation of my position, as is much of your response on here.

Why is it so often the case that those most passionate about England are all but incapable of understanding and using their own language?

So everyone in England is English, every racial attribute, every cultural attribute, everything that is a multi racial multi lingual multi cultural England. They are your English.

If you're asking me whether people of different racial, cultural and religious traits can all be English. Yes, they can. They won't be English by citizenship because there is no such thing, and if they're not of English extraction and upbringing then they won't be ethnically English, but their national identity could be English even though they are not ethnically English.

A multi-racial, multi-lingual and multi-cultural England exists now in the absence of English civic nationalism.

Civic English Gordon Brown

Gordon Brown is neither a civic English nationalist nor an ethnic English nationalist. He is a British nationalist, civic. He actively opposes civic English nationalism by denying England the popular sovereignty that he championed for Scotland, and by attempting to emasculate England politically. He has no interest in the English nation however it is constituted.

You try to make English either
a mental attitude or
a physical attitude
when it is both

This doesn't make sense. What is a 'physical attitude' when it’s at home?

The same as differentuates a Somalian from a Nigerian.
An Iraqi from an Eqyptian.

This doesn't make sense either, could you try forming complete, intelligible sentences? I presume that you're alluding to racial differences between the people of those nations without questioning the racial differences that are apparent within them.

Your ridiculous claim to English being purely a mental attribute is as ridiculous as you walking into a mosque and claiming to be Pakistani.

I’ll reiterate. I claim that someone can be ethnically English, by reason of heritage and belonging to the group that define themselves as ethnically English, and by being accepted as part of that group (both you and I would be part of that self-defining group); additionally I claim that someone can be English by national identity, irrespective of heritage because they feel themselves to be English and are accepted as English by the other people living in England (you, me, and potentially Abdul could be part of that self-defining group), and; I also claim that there is potential for a third type of 'English': Citizenship - which would be legally conferred through an independent English state (You, me and Abdul could all be part of this state-defined group - a group that I think you're referring to as the 'civic English').

The above featured in the original post, like so:

1. What is my ethnic identity?
2. What is my national identity?
3. What is my state identity, my citizenship?

Your ridiculous claim to English being purely a mental attribute is as ridiculous as you walking into a mosque and claiming to be Pakistani.
Or claiming all Canadians to be Inuit's, or that all Australians are Aborigini's.

I realise that your conception of nation is a purely ethnic and/or racial one - the old "Just because you are born in a stable it doesn't make you a horse" type. My concept of nation isn't purely ethnic or racial one, so it's an argument that doesn't concern me. The very basis of my argument is that you don't have to be white or ethnically English to feel that your national identity is English, to feel that you belong to England and that England belongs to you; someone can be accepted as part of England without being accepted as ethnically English. There are millions of people of English ethnicity around the world who do not feel a sense of English national identity. This is because national identity is different to ethnic identity. People of common ethnicity cross continents, span national boundaries. Equally people of different ethnic groups form nations and forge a common national identity (See Canada to which you refer, and in which the Indigenous peoples of Quebec prevented Quebecois secession). The Inuits are an ethnic nation with certain First Nation rights and territory within the nation state of Canada. Having lived in Canada I'm not convinced that the special status of the First Nations does them any favours, but that is an argument for another time.

The converse argument to mine, which I assume to be yours, is that someone who is black or asian cannot be English. I don't agree with you, and I have English friends who are not ethnically English who wouldn't agree with you either. Just as Inuits can be Inuit AND Canadian, the ethnic English can be English and Canadian. It is also possible that an Inuit might regard their national identity as Quebecois rather than Canadian, but posses - obviously -Canadian citizenship.

I mean if Abdul says "Im English" does he mean civic or ethnic or nationally English. How many types of English are there in your England?

If Abdul said “I am English” to you now, what would you understand him to mean? You can probably elucidate the answer to your own question by thinking it through.

Hold on first everyone in England is 'civic' English, which would include Abdul, now Abduls only English if he wants to be?

Ideally England should have at least some of the paraphernalia of statehood so that people can participate on the basis of citizenship with legal duties, rights, and privileges. This, I believe, would help foster a sense of English national identity. However, simply possessing certain citizenship rights does not mean that your national identity will be contingent with the nation in which you are a citizen.

Does Abdul have to say Im ethnic Pakistani but civic English just to differentuate between the two.

Abdul doesn't HAVE to say anything, he can describe himself as he sees fit, just as you can. I presume you would be able to ascertain whether or not he was ethnically English.

I mean if Abdul says "Im English" does he mean civic or ethnic or nationally English. How many types of English are there in your England?

'Civic English' is your term, not mine. You introduced 'civic English' which I took to be a mocking term for people who are not ethnically English but are English by reason of English citizenship. As I said previously:

My 'civic English' will be everyone in England, all English in one crucial respect - through the ballot box, able to elect representatives to an English parliament. That still doesn't make them English by national identity and self-identification, but it can help inculcate a feeling of belonging to England.

If by 'civic English' you mean people who have English citizenship – it can't happen at present because England is subsumed within Britain and cannot confer citizenship, although I hope it can go at least as far as Scotland in providing aspects of citizenship and democratic inclusion.

So by making everyone English-something you think we will all suddenly unite into one multi racial multi cultural unity

Obviously not but we can attempt to make the country as cohesive as possible.

My vision of the future.
Thanks to mass immigration and government social engineering helped by the likes of yourelf, I see a further divided group of peoples.

That's your vision, and you eschew civic nationalism, so what practical steps do you intend to make about the problems that you see now and envisage for the future?

I would like to say a big thank you to yourself, because it is through your (and others like you) undermining of the English that the English are begining to unite as one people with both a racial and mental English identity.

In what way have I undermined the English?

Torque said; If you're asking

Torque said;
If you're asking me whether people of different racial, cultural and religious traits can all be English. Yes, they can. They won't be English by citizenship because there is no such thing, and if they're not of English extraction and upbringing then they won't be ethnically English, but their national identity could be English even though they are not ethnically English.

So Torque has;
ethnic English and
national English.

I have one: English, the rest are British.

Just as Australia has Aborigini, and Australian.
Just as Canada has Inuit and Canadian.
Just as Africa has Somalian and African.

Torques own words show he has no concern with what effect his ideology has on the English.

'My concept of nation isn't purely ethnic or racial one, so it's an argument that doesn't concern me.'

But I thankyou for at least appreciating my concern.

I agree that many non English people living in England have respect and loyalty to England.
BUT England and the English are two different things.

The basic problem WE have here is that you want to recognise;
ethnic English and national English

Both will be called English

This doesnt concern you.

As for Abdul, when he said he was English and i explained my viewpoint he at least saw that all I was doing was protect my ethnic identity.
It doesnt make him any less loyal to this country or his English wife.
He realises that to claim to be English is as silly as claiming to be an Inuit when quite clearly he isnt.

Or me claiming to be Pakistani which I am not.

As for how you undermine the ethnic English, because when ever an ethnic Englishman (or woman) talks about being an ethnic Englishman he will have to say I am an ethnic Englishman to differentuate between being an ethnic Englishman and being a civic Englishman.
Then we will get all the civic English coming on TV being called English and continue with the media undermining of the ethnic English (100% English/mongrol Nation etc)
Soon our children will all become the English a multi racial multi cultural nothing.

But that is no concern of yours.

Toque's picture

"Both will be called English.

"Both will be called English. This doesnt concern you."

No. I'm ethnically English and I expect that I would be reasonably good at recognising those who are also ethnically English and those who are not, if I were ever to apply myself to such a task. Your concern that there will be two differently constituted but overlapping groups who call themselves English is not something that concerns me. If you find yourself at a juncture where you are fooled into believing that someone is ethnically English when they are not, then I would regard that as a good thing in terms of integration. But if it pleases you, you could always call yourself Englisc with the little c at the end - as is your way - or you could call 'them' Englanders instead of English. The English language is nothing if not adaptable, and I'm sure it will adapt if there are enough people who find the diversity of English identity as confusing as you do.

But if it pleases you, you

But if it pleases you, you could always call yourself Englisc with the little c at the end - as is your way - or you could call 'them' Englanders instead of English. The English language is nothing if not adaptable, and I'm sure it will adapt if there are enough people who find the diversity of English identity as confusing as you do.

I wouldnt dream of calling 'them' Englanders.

It would be British or by their ethnic identity.

Today I trained with a 'Riaz' he is Pakistani. He has no problem with me thinking him Pakistani as that is what he is.
He has no problem with me not considering him English as he knows I respect my identity as much as he respects his.

He would want his family to learn of their history and culture which I respect.

Abdul spoke of the young Pakistani youth in his area having no respect for their elders of having no sense of identity.

Ooops sorry 'thats no concern of yours' is it.

A multi racial multi cultural multi lingual English...no history, no identity, no culture, a nothing identity.

But that doesnt concern you as long as you have your English parliament.

Toque's picture

Abdul spoke of the young

Abdul spoke of the young Pakistani youth in his area having no respect for their elders of having no sense of identity.

Is this Abdul a real person then?

He is as is Riaz. Both good

He is as is Riaz.

Both good friends. Both proud of their ethnicity as I am proud of mine.

Toque's picture

OK, I thought you were

OK, I thought you were talking about a hypothetical Abdul. You should email Abdul the link to this discussion and see what he thinks.

CIVIC Nationalism is ABSURD

WHY, let me ask you one simple question...

First I am ethnically English (ipso-facto "white") male, I am a threatened and reviled species, an underclass in MY country. No handouts.
I am presumed racist purely by existing due to my characteristics IN MY COUNTRY.
MY culture is being erased by "civics".
The nations of islam, in case you missed it, have openly declared their intent to "make England a muslim nation" (along with the rest of The British Isles).
In case you hadn't noticed, we are being out bred.
Statistics, openly available, suggest that their goal will be achieved by the end of this century.

Now the question, assuming you aren't a homosexual (no offense intended, it is relevant to your answer).

DO YOU really really want this future for YOUR Grand Children or Great Grandchildren and beyond?

Where the women are treated like dirt, and are required to cover there entire body with drab clothing, I am sure you have heard of the penalties levied against ANYONE who stands out against islam in an islamic country?

Just about every Ethnic English person will have a relative who lost their lives defending our country against invaders- now people (like you?) are happy to invite them in and even aid them in the destruction of our already fragile culture?

All I can ask is why WHY WHY ?

PLEASE drop political correct nonsense and open your eyes.

Toque's picture

You seem to be confusing me

You seem to be confusing me with someone who supports Islam and mass immigration, I certainly don't support mass immigration and I'm definitely no fan of Islam. If you had bothered to read (or were able to comprehend) my article you would have noticed that it is about civic nationalism, not about immigration or Islam.

Sorry we are not the English

Sorry we are not the English anymore we have to state we are ethnic English.
Though Torque cannot comprehend how this is undermining our identity.

But as Torque said 'it is no concern of mine'

So our name is changed to ethnic English so that civic English can respect we ethnic English.

Mind you, ethnic and civic is a bit divisive and it would be better if we just stuck to English.

So how can the English be out bred if the immigrants to England are now English?

Yipee we are all English united in one great big happy family.

NOT.

Exactly... NOT. Andy you

Exactly... NOT.

Andy you express yourself very well, and better than I.

I am in complete agreement with you.

Torque, on the other hand, (prior responses) seems to deliver "insinuated" insults, and fails to realise that his stated stance makes him, BY DEFAULT, pro immigration. "English Civic nationalism"? The concept alone is a total load of ****.

The islam militants have expressed their intentions perfectly clearly.

The Englisc are purely reacting defensively, to PROTECT (what is left of) OUR national, cultural and ethnic roots.

Oh and by the way before THAT comes up - I am not a racist, a radical, an extremist or any other "ist".
I think, I see and I feel.
Why do I have to tolerate anglophobic racists in MY country?

I am an average bloke - who's had enough.

Quite willing to ask nicely - could I please have my country back?

Thank you.

Toque's picture

Come on now 'Englisc Native'.

Come on now 'Englisc Native'. You make assumptions about me based on...well, assumption and little else, and then you are proactive in defending yourself against any assumption that you might be a racist, a radical, an extremist or any other "ist"

Just about every Ethnic English person will have a relative who lost their lives defending our country against invaders- now people (like you?) are happy to invite them in and even aid them in the destruction of our already fragile culture?

Where is your evidence that I am happy to invite 'them' in - these invaders - and even happy to aid them in the destruction of our culture? You're making it up as you go along, based upon some stereotype that you have of civic nationalists.

Disagreeing with me is one thing, spouting unsubstantiated bullshit is quite another.

You confirm the stereotype that I have of ethnic nationalists. You do your cause little good.

Mr Been(ie), :-) Toke,

Mr Been(ie), :-) Toke, Toque...

Come on a little humour here, your from Lewes?

That place has as much ethnic pride as any other within England's borders!
You are the much closer to Hastings, and surely are aware of the immigrant "problem" as much as any Englishman.

My "unsubstantiated bullshit" is extrapolated from your own scribbings!

"Stereotypical" usually applies to large groups where others become stereotypes- neigh kin, of that group.

In this case, Sir, I consider that AN HONOUR, that you, a stranger, recognise me as a part of the group of Ethnic Englisc, to which I hold a STRONG affinity.

There is only ONE Englisc Nationalist view - ETHNIC English.
Civic English Nationalism is a misnomer - and, politely, bollocks.

EVERYONE has the most profound RIGHT to be proud of their ethnic heritage, wherever that may be, and Sir I respect that:- as is, where is.

This is Anglo Saxon England, the Normans even though victors were a minority and assimilated into Anglo Saxon England. You, yourself are most likely a descendent, of Anglo saxon blood.

Appreciate it, this is YOUR country too...

Toque's picture

I'm very aware of the

I'm very aware of the problems caused by immigration. But the fact that I am a civic nationalist does not me a supporter of immigration, a fact that you don't seem to be able to get your head around. For both civic and ethnic nationalists "Nation" = "People". For you it is an 'ethnic people' for me it is the people who live in the territory of England. What makes us 'nationalists' is the fact that we believe in the sovereignty of those people; you believe that the ethnic English should be sovereign to determine their future free from the unwanted encroachment of foreigners, and I believe that England as a political nation-state should be have the same sovereign freedom. Civic nationalism is no more stupid than ethnic nationalism, it just springs from a different concept of "Nation" - I believe that 'English' has a broader definition.

You have implied that I am not proud of my ethnic heritage, and and that I happily invite invaders into England and am happy to aid them in the destruction our culture. As yet you have not accounted for that rather bizarre and unsubstantiated bullshit.

EVERYONE has the most profound RIGHT to be proud of their ethnic heritage

I could not agree more.

Ethnicity

Toque:

"My civic nationalism is about allowing people who are not ethnically English to feel English by national identity, which I hope will help instill a sense of pride in England's cultural heritage and collective national identity, despite the fact - or even because of the fact - that they are not ethnically English."

It isn't a matter of "allowing" people to feel English, they do not want to be English. Even if they did want to be English they know that they are not English. By the way, I think you're patronising non-English people, i.e. why do you presume that they are not happy being whatever particular ethnicity they are already? Why do you assume that they have a desire to be English? Plus, why would some foreigner want to call themselves English when all the hear is how "racist", and "vile" the English are?
English identity, as with ALL other ethnicities, IS intertwined with being Northern European! That is a fact and Like the Duke of Wellington stated, just because you're born in a stable it doesnt necessarily mean you're a horse. I have asked several different people about this and they all laughed when I said, "if I were born in Zimbabwe would that make me African?"
People who are not English will not have pride in England just because you decide that they should "feel English [via] national identity". Yes, someone can live in England and love it's culture, i.e. English literature, theatre, sports, classical music, countryside et al, but that still does not make them English! It is absurd to claim that just because someone lives in England it makes them English! They are patently not English. More to the point, they do not want to be English. Oh come on, you must have seen all the Pakistanis waving pakistan flags whenever England play pakistan at cricket! Why is that?

Toque's picture

I'm certainly not patronising

I'm certainly not patronising people who are not English, my own wife is not English and doesn't call herself English, nor do I expect her to given that she is quite content being Canadian. But I expect that our kids might.

The fact that you and your mates don't think that someone can be a white African doesn't mean that they can't be. I know people who regard themselves as white Africans, those people do exist. It might be counter-intuitive to those who are race obsessed and pigeon-hole people based on the colour of their skin, but to the rest of us it's simply a reflection of their identity.

you must have seen all the Pakistanis waving pakistan flags whenever England play pakistan at cricket!

Have you ever wondered why they should support England when the Government tells them that they are British (or British-Pakistani)?

You seem to think that national identity is somehow preserved in aspic, or is in the sole ownership of one ethnic group. I have news for you, history tells us otherwise. People are integrated into nations. Disparate peoples even form new nations.

Anyway, there are clearly insuperable differences between me and you visitors from uepengland.com, and I get the message that you think I am living in cloud cuckoo land/am wearing rose-tinted specs/am a fool.

So let me ask, what practical solutions do you have to the problem of a society divided along racial, religious and ethnic grounds. You clearly see a problem, so what are you going to do about it?

What are you going to do about it??

Begin a process of gradual repatriation, and don't tell me it can't be done, because it can be done, nothing ever invented or brought into being by any man/woman or Government can not be undone, or changed, and simply by saying it is impossible to undo what has been done, is foolish, it can be done, and it should be done, and i think that most immigrants would agree that things in England have gone beyond the bounds of COMMON SENCE!!

This is not their Homeland as i have already stated, they know that, and we know that, so why do you have problems with it??

HG

Toque's picture

So you would 'repatriate'

So you would 'repatriate' people who were born in England because they can never be English, in your view?

Here Harold and I disagree. I

Here Harold and I disagree.

I have many black and Asian friends whom I would not want to see repatriated, unless they wished to take the money and move on.

I also think it very unlikely ever happening.

Though I would like to see any visitors who commit any crime punishable by a jail term given the boot as an unwelcome guest on release.

You talk about history and integration of foreign people, but these integrations were of similer peoples. Even then many still hold onto their ancestral/ethnic roots, the Irish Americans, Italian Americans etc.
Many black Amreicans have more ancestors in America then many white Americans yet they still seperate themselves racially.

Your civic English/national English will see civic English as something as meaningless as it is.
Something to adopt when the situation requires and something to drop when it benefits them to do so.

Your English is not a real identity racially or culturally. Therefore as something meaningless why on earth should anyone want to adopt your multi cultural multi historical non identity.

How we 'try' to build a more united community.

Stop celebrating diversity and giving preferential treatment to anyone.

Stop trying to make everyone something they are not and have no wish to be.

Remove the over 5500 black and minority organizations which give preferential treatment to BME peoples.
We dont have BME football and have a multi racial England team
so why have a Miss Black Great Britain? Let the best looking woman 'of any colour' win on looks not race.

Find similarities and build on these.

Our wish for an English parliament
England football/rugby/cricket team
The British Army
Inequalities of devolution
Inequalities of the Barnet
The loss of our rights, and money, to Europe.

Unite the people of England not with an insubstantial and meaningless identity but by uniting them in a cause that effects them ALL as people of England.

Give them a real reason to come to gether not another meaningless gesture that means nothing to any of them.

Toque's picture

Remove the over 5500 black

Remove the over 5500 black and minority organizations which give preferential treatment to BME peoples.
We dont have BME football and have a multi racial England team
so why have a Miss Black Great Britain? Let the best looking woman 'of any colour' win on looks not race.

These are not arguments against civic nationalism, they are arguments against multiculturalism and the ethnic communalism that multiculturalism encourages. Your basic arguments are ones that I agree with. Of course, as I am libertarian by nature I would not ban ethnic organisations, I would just insist that they are paid for by the ethnic group that believes it requires an organisation. As a civic nationalist I think we should have one uniting national identity and comprise our football team on that basis, pick a Miss England on that basis, not split down tribal lines, all equally a part of modern England even if our genetics do not derive from early England.

They are not English!

Anonymous, well put, and very well explained i would say.

They don't want to be English simply because they are not English and they know they are not English, they are who they are, as i am who i am eg. Native or Ethnic Englisc or English!!

Toque sigests that they be as proud of Englisc Identity, Culture and Heratige as the Native Folk are, how can they be, when their own Heratige and Culture belongs somewhere else, its called ROOTS, knowing what and what you are, and from where your roots are, and your Ancestry, so how can those who are not Native to England feel anything for English Identity, History, Culture and Heratige?

Do they have any link to England's Germanic/Nordic Roots, History, Identity, Culture, and Heratige?

Of course not, how could they, their Roots, History, Identity, Heratige belong elsewhere, can i claim any love or pride in there Ethnic Historical Roots?

Again of course not simply because i am not of them, simply because their Ethnic Historical Roots, are not mine, and no matter how much i wish it was otherwise, it wouldn't be, because my Ethnic Historical Roots are here in England, and go further back to Denmark and North Western Germany, and that can not be changed, and i would not want to change that fact.

So i am what i am, and they are who they are, there is no Ethnic, Historical or National link between us, this is my Homeland, Father-Land or Mother-Land as some prefure, their Homeland or Father-Land is elsewhere, not here, simple as that!!

What the above Anonymous has said is correct, and puts the term Nonsecens to your English Civil or National Identity for anyone who is not of England or its Germanic/Nordic Ethnic Historical Root!!

HG

Toque's picture

Do they have any link to

Do they have any link to England's Germanic/Nordic Roots, History, Identity, Culture, and Heratige?

An apposite question might be to ask what link you have to England's Germanic/Nordic Roots, History, Identity, Culture, and Heritage. Assuming that a significant proportion of your ancestry did arrive from Germania before or during the formative years of the English nation, is it the the transmission of their DNA that has kept you English or is it the transmission of their culture, and; is territorial homeland - a feeling of place - as important to your cultural identity as a feeling of race?

I think I agree...

with someone, a stranger.
Anon I applaud your comments, in general.
I think you and Andy may have dismantled Toque's postulations.. once and for all - on this subject.
THE BIG THING, and in my humble "opinion" and with experience. The more (in general) humankind recognises and salutes, the unique differences we humans have... the better we seem to get along. Within our own borders.

I support this (I made this up) Multi-mono-culturalism. I do not celebrate diversity in small confines. I do, however, celebrate diversity globally.

I digress "off topic"...

My pleasures as a child - visiting a "foreign" country (at the time France), investigating this "foreign" culture, different language, culture, currency, customs.
Wonderful memories, - the expression "when in Rome..." totally applicable.

We all have our place - where we belong - in this world, but forcing political correctness and agendas on us, - NO.

I am Englisc, I belong in England. I have respect for all other cultures and customs, BUT they belong where they are - in "foreign" countries. I would enjoy visiting them, and embrace their uniqueness. I would expect the same in reciprocation. Come and visit us - the Englisc - we welcome your company, on a temporary basis.
You want to migrate here? Fine but RESPECT OUR culture and traditions.
Don't impose YOUR alienness upon us.
Your people's culture and/or government would surely see us in gaol or worse, if we behaved like so in YOUR place of ethnic origin.

After reading both this

After reading both this article and the comments made in response I can entirely understand your frustration with ethnic nationalists, Toque. None the less, I am an ethnic nationalist.

God only knows now....

With the exception of Andy, who has been a veritable light amongst the darkness which is the Anglo-Saxon supremacism movement, the rest leave me as bewildered as the previous poster.

Englisc Native even left England to procreate with an Irish-American, yet has the temerity to dictate to us about who is and who isn't English...WITH AN 'H', by the way. ;)

English nationalism, on an

English nationalism, on an ethnic level, does not have to be anything to do with a notion of 'Anglo-Saxon supremacism', a term that is as stereotypical as to say all civic nationalists are 'stupid', or whatever. Although it would be safe to assume you where using the term as an intentional pejorative, anyway.

The problem with civic nationalism is that it is promotional of an all-encompasing national assimilation in which the identities of those who are, in regards to English nationalism, not English by ethnicity or even more significantly, not English by birth, must abandon their sense of who they are and adopt a new English identity in order to be 'English' and thus accepted by the civic nationalist - regardless of the criticisms fired at assimilation from all sides of the fence, quite frankly I just don't see it working.

There will always be an Anjem Choudary and there will always be an "Anglo-Saxon supremacist", so to speak.

I fail to see how all out assimilation would work without the implementation of dogma, dictatorship and control - there will always be conflict on some level, there will always be someone who "doesn't want to be English", and the case is the same for multiculturalism - particularly in the 21st century where we see a heavy erosion of English identity and deculturalisation effecting all areas.

The most obviously fair answer I can conclude is ethnic pan-nationalism, however unethical it may first appear - and that's the problem, the 'multiculturalism or nationalism, civic or ethnic' argument always comes down to a question of ethics, morality and 'rights' and 'wrongs'.

Anyway, I rushed this comment... Have to go to work...

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